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Recently I have had a number of people requesting that I allow child avatars at friends-grid and I want to discuss this openly and honestly.
It is not my place to try and push my morals and values upon others....however, as a grid owner, it is my place to learn the laws of every country involved. In this situation, I need to understand the Child pornography laws of not only where our servers are located, but I also had to research and learn the laws of every country we have residents and guests from. We currently have residents from 30 countries and guests from another 35. People who say "laws dont apply " are incorrect on this subject. You may have servers in one country.....but all the laws of your resident's countries come into play also.
A good thing to remember is that because you have gotten away with something for 10 years does not make it legal. You may never get caught....and then again.....somebody with a grudge may turn you in.
I want to point out a recent post by Jerralyn Franzic . Jerralyn showed the cutest childs outfit ever! ....and she also made the wisest statement ...."I don't understand the hatred towards child avis in Open Sim. Sure, they shouldn't engage in adult activities and maybe not hang in Adult sims but otherwise, what's the problem?" Personally I would love to see kids riding ponies at my farm....and having fun being mermaids. If everyone in child avi were to abide by Jerralyn's statement, there would not be an issue.
However, lets talk about reality. Not all child avis are simply riding ponies and playing in the water. The simple truth is that many (not all) of these child avis are having sex. Some grids use this to boost their traffic. In some countries, including US, the graphic illustration of a child online having sex is 100% illegal. You see, it does not matter if the person behind the computer is 12 or 52......the visual computer generated depiction of a child (child avatar) involved in sex is very illegal in a number of countries. 18 U.S.C. § 2252 Many people will say their countries are different....and this is stupid. I did not make laws........but I need to abide by them. Before people jump on this and criticize me ....I would suggest you read the laws of your country....your servers country...and the laws of all your residents or guests. There are many misinformed people on this subject. I am not saying the laws are right or wrong......but learn the laws.....then comment. You need to learn laws for your servers country...and all your guests countries. This post is not about morals......it is about laws....of all the countries involved.
I have spent over 200 hours reading international laws. Some countries allow things that others do not. However, you have to consider all the laws because of guests.
In closing....do I hate kids and kids avis......nooooooo. I would love to be able to allow them to come to friends grid. However, this is a less than perfect world in which we live, and I have to look at the potential liability of allowing those child avis. Because of that, Child avis are not allowed on friends-grid......no exceptions! I am sad....because there are some wonderful people in kids avis that I do not get to have visit.
Friends-grid is an Adult community and we are looking for adults, with adult avi's who want to make this their main opensim home.
It is not my place to try and push my morals and values upon others....however, as a grid owner, it is my place to learn the laws of every country involved. In this situation, I need to understand the Child pornography laws of not only where our servers are located, but I also had to research and learn the laws of every country we have residents and guests from. We currently have residents from 30 countries and guests from another 35. People who say "laws dont apply " are incorrect on this subject. You may have servers in one country.....but all the laws of your resident's countries come into play also.
A good thing to remember is that because you have gotten away with something for 10 years does not make it legal. You may never get caught....and then again.....somebody with a grudge may turn you in.
I want to point out a recent post by Jerralyn Franzic . Jerralyn showed the cutest childs outfit ever! ....and she also made the wisest statement ...."I don't understand the hatred towards child avis in Open Sim. Sure, they shouldn't engage in adult activities and maybe not hang in Adult sims but otherwise, what's the problem?" Personally I would love to see kids riding ponies at my farm....and having fun being mermaids. If everyone in child avi were to abide by Jerralyn's statement, there would not be an issue.
However, lets talk about reality. Not all child avis are simply riding ponies and playing in the water. The simple truth is that many (not all) of these child avis are having sex. Some grids use this to boost their traffic. In some countries, including US, the graphic illustration of a child online having sex is 100% illegal. You see, it does not matter if the person behind the computer is 12 or 52......the visual computer generated depiction of a child (child avatar) involved in sex is very illegal in a number of countries. 18 U.S.C. § 2252 Many people will say their countries are different....and this is stupid. I did not make laws........but I need to abide by them. Before people jump on this and criticize me ....I would suggest you read the laws of your country....your servers country...and the laws of all your residents or guests. There are many misinformed people on this subject. I am not saying the laws are right or wrong......but learn the laws.....then comment. You need to learn laws for your servers country...and all your guests countries. This post is not about morals......it is about laws....of all the countries involved.
I have spent over 200 hours reading international laws. Some countries allow things that others do not. However, you have to consider all the laws because of guests.
In closing....do I hate kids and kids avis......nooooooo. I would love to be able to allow them to come to friends grid. However, this is a less than perfect world in which we live, and I have to look at the potential liability of allowing those child avis. Because of that, Child avis are not allowed on friends-grid......no exceptions! I am sad....because there are some wonderful people in kids avis that I do not get to have visit.
Friends-grid is an Adult community and we are looking for adults, with adult avi's who want to make this their main opensim home.
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I don't have any issues with grids doing their thing, I can abide by that. I do that whether I'm in SL or OS. Thanks for clearing it up.
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I think this is the proper way to address this issue Safine. You are setting the rules YOU are comfortable with on YOUR region. I am fine having my region open to everyone as long as they agree to follow the rules. That is what works for me. I totally support your doing what works for you! That is as it should be. No campaigning or trickery against other regions. No crusading, just taking care of home. Just good common sense. I think this is the best way to deal with an issue that is not black and white as some try to make it.
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You are not an attorney. Always err on the side of caution. You are doing right, and honestly, you don't need to justify your decision for the good of your grid and your own wellbeing.
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I don't agree that 'children have no place in OSW' but neither do I feel like pushing luck with various laws, and God only knows what strangers will get up to on your lands and grids. Families exist in RL and many like to have them on OS and SL too. Sadly, we can't have that freedom, due to a**holes.
I have had to boot and ban people who have brought in obviously 'not of age' bots and such, even this is not okay.
I've decided to turn all my public regions on both my Grids to Adult rating, due to this unfortunate situation of people ruining it for others.
On our private sims, we have families, and these are people very well known to me. Nice, decent, non freaky folk who really enjoy making a family as part of roleplay there. But if I don't personally know who ever is behind the wheel, so to speak, ain't happening.
It's such a shame.
As mentioned here over and over, there are really creative and adorable outfits and avies for kids. Shame we can only ever enjoy them on private places now, due to the sickos and the jeopardy they are willing to put everyone in :(
So from starting today, NO child avatars on any of my public lands. Really sucks, I was going to have a couple of kid friendly places soon. Nahhh .. it just isn't worth it. Thank you Safine for a very calm and intelligent write up about all this. It really made me have to think about things, and I concluded it's just not worth even trying.
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I have had to boot and ban people who have brought in obviously 'not of age' bots and such, even this is not okay.
I've decided to turn all my public regions on both my Grids to Adult rating, due to this unfortunate situation of people ruining it for others.
On our private sims, we have families, and these are people very well known to me. Nice, decent, non freaky folk who really enjoy making a family as part of roleplay there. But if I don't personally know who ever is behind the wheel, so to speak, ain't happening.
It's such a shame.
As mentioned here over and over, there are really creative and adorable outfits and avies for kids. Shame we can only ever enjoy them on private places now, due to the sickos and the jeopardy they are willing to put everyone in :(
So from starting today, NO child avatars on any of my public lands. Really sucks, I was going to have a couple of kid friendly places soon. Nahhh .. it just isn't worth it. Thank you Safine for a very calm and intelligent write up about all this. It really made me have to think about things, and I concluded it's just not worth even trying.
Children have absolutely no place in OSW. There's already enough trouble with it in SL, we don't need it here.
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The truth is that there is NO right answer!
- If you scan visitors and process their data you may have deadly GDPR issues….
- If you have a script that measures height, you are racist and even worse, you limit the rights of sick people. In many race's, 1.60m is a tall and athletic man, and a 1.50m woman is too tall to find a husband! Does it make sense to discuss segregation towards the "little people" (dwarfs)? Regarding the size of the breasts, I think in any country in the world you will be condemned instantly for the remark that my breasts are small! And don't even think about looking at my ass!!! This is also the reason I am against the well-known racist and segregationist "overwatch sentry". I'm not sure which is more dangerous "overwatch sentry" or child avatars without swimsuits.....
- If you try to limit some mesh bodies (PHNX, Athena Flat or similar) you will soon find out that it doesn't work and is easy bypassed.
- You can stalk like a wild beast and ban any ass who looks like a child to you or a woman who forgot to put on huge silicone implants... If they don't condemn you for racism and segregation, at least you will loose the visitors.
Is there an acceptable solution?
YES!
If your SIM is listed as "General" you have every right to immediately kick out anyone who tries to talk about sex, have sex, or even walk around naked or without underwear (like me)! Kids avatars is not problem CLOTHED and not speak for sex. You may kick out "kids" for bad moral also.
Where's the problem..... Very soon you will become popular, will go to #1 in OSW and.... Will be trashed and slandered and banned (like Dark Hearts).
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- If you scan visitors and process their data you may have deadly GDPR issues….
- If you have a script that measures height, you are racist and even worse, you limit the rights of sick people. In many race's, 1.60m is a tall and athletic man, and a 1.50m woman is too tall to find a husband! Does it make sense to discuss segregation towards the "little people" (dwarfs)? Regarding the size of the breasts, I think in any country in the world you will be condemned instantly for the remark that my breasts are small! And don't even think about looking at my ass!!! This is also the reason I am against the well-known racist and segregationist "overwatch sentry". I'm not sure which is more dangerous "overwatch sentry" or child avatars without swimsuits.....
- If you try to limit some mesh bodies (PHNX, Athena Flat or similar) you will soon find out that it doesn't work and is easy bypassed.
- You can stalk like a wild beast and ban any ass who looks like a child to you or a woman who forgot to put on huge silicone implants... If they don't condemn you for racism and segregation, at least you will loose the visitors.
Is there an acceptable solution?
YES!
If your SIM is listed as "General" you have every right to immediately kick out anyone who tries to talk about sex, have sex, or even walk around naked or without underwear (like me)! Kids avatars is not problem CLOTHED and not speak for sex. You may kick out "kids" for bad moral also.
Where's the problem..... Very soon you will become popular, will go to #1 in OSW and.... Will be trashed and slandered and banned (like Dark Hearts).
Hello my friend! good to see you! Thank you for taking the time to write a very polite response showing your opinion on this matter. As I have pointed out to others, I want to remind you that this post is not about my opinions or my morals....it is about the LAW. I will gladly discuss LAW....but really do not care to debate opinions. I respect that your opinions are different than mine, thats ok. I am not trying to change anyone, but I am offering a logical legal reason for why children are not allowed on my grid.
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Are you not understant LAW answer? "NO right answer!"
Do what you want in your SIM, only not scream loud against ..... kids, size, boobs.... etc.... Kick someone who you not like, WITHOUT explain about small size or body or any other. Kick who you not like and all is ok! This is your SIM. NO RIGHT RULES! Every rule is against some law....
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Do what you want in your SIM, only not scream loud against ..... kids, size, boobs.... etc.... Kick someone who you not like, WITHOUT explain about small size or body or any other. Kick who you not like and all is ok! This is your SIM. NO RIGHT RULES! Every rule is against some law....
Safine! :) Well said! I agree 100%.. just the day before yesterday I had a child avatar from zetaworlds, come to my region on OSGrid.. there was no event, they just showed up, they messaged me without asking and complimented my "sexy avatar" .. I just got the UUID and banned immediately! I do not allow child avatars on my grid or my regions.. and each region is set as adult. I will ban any avatar that looks like a child period. I will never allow them!
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Well the thing is that if one is actually afraid someone wearing a child suit will indecently expose and flaunt themselves on your grid, what prevents them from coming in as an adult and then changing their outfit after they arrive? Personally after 15 years on Opensim and the Hypergrid, I have yet to see one but I think that by drawing attention to what it is you don't want, you will attract that very thing. It is like people who try to ward off drama, they always seem to attract that very thing. Good luck with your restrictions but I do hope you don't attract the very thing you are trying to prevent by drawing attention to it.
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Then you have some adult avatars, that act like children, in a school yard. Who like to name call, and bully anyone. Your grid, your rules, all must abide by.
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I gather cat and bunny avatars, aren't really real life cats and bunnies (shock-horror!), oh my!. Me throws my hands in the air and wrings my wrists, what are we do to, what are we to do? Maybe their all having sex with each other, maybe their underage!
You may have detected a little sarcasm in the above, if so good for you :) I know, absolutely no-one asked for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway. The barrier to entry is so high in virtual, in opensim (or slightly lesser so, if you're in secondlife, goodness-help-you), its highly unlikely any child avatar you happen to see in-world, are actually real life children. In my virtual life of roughly 18 years, my spider sense, tells me this happened once, back in secondlife, maybe in 2007.
Virtual is turning into a horrible, devise, exclusive, finger pointing society, which to be frank, sickens me. There's far more we have in common, than divides us, all you child hating, sim banning, finger pointing Karen's should be ashamed of yourselves, unfortunately, I believe, by thinking you should separate avatars based upon their appearance, you think you're doing something laudable, useful and good.
You're not.
Maybe actually venture out into those places you fear & talk to people with an open mind and heart, you may find it cathartic.
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You may have detected a little sarcasm in the above, if so good for you :) I know, absolutely no-one asked for my opinion, but I'll give it anyway. The barrier to entry is so high in virtual, in opensim (or slightly lesser so, if you're in secondlife, goodness-help-you), its highly unlikely any child avatar you happen to see in-world, are actually real life children. In my virtual life of roughly 18 years, my spider sense, tells me this happened once, back in secondlife, maybe in 2007.
Virtual is turning into a horrible, devise, exclusive, finger pointing society, which to be frank, sickens me. There's far more we have in common, than divides us, all you child hating, sim banning, finger pointing Karen's should be ashamed of yourselves, unfortunately, I believe, by thinking you should separate avatars based upon their appearance, you think you're doing something laudable, useful and good.
You're not.
Maybe actually venture out into those places you fear & talk to people with an open mind and heart, you may find it cathartic.
Let's boil this down:
You responded to a post where a person explains that due to the the threat of laws in countries where that person doesn't live, and therefore had no say on the passage of said laws, that person feels that they can't permit child avatars on their grid.
You then insulted the poster on a number of levels. Just to remind you I thought I'd quote some of the more salient points of the original post which you clearly didn't comprehend:
"It is not my place to try and push my morals and values upon others"
"Personally I would love to see kids riding ponies at my farm....and having fun being mermaids. If everyone in child avi were to abide by Jerralyn's statement, there would not be an issue."
If you are an adult, which your tantrum brings into question, I suggest an apology to @Safinemahoe2 is in order.
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You responded to a post where a person explains that due to the the threat of laws in countries where that person doesn't live, and therefore had no say on the passage of said laws, that person feels that they can't permit child avatars on their grid.
You then insulted the poster on a number of levels. Just to remind you I thought I'd quote some of the more salient points of the original post which you clearly didn't comprehend:
"It is not my place to try and push my morals and values upon others"
"Personally I would love to see kids riding ponies at my farm....and having fun being mermaids. If everyone in child avi were to abide by Jerralyn's statement, there would not be an issue."
If you are an adult, which your tantrum brings into question, I suggest an apology to @Safinemahoe2 is in order.
Hello Snik, Might want to take the time to read my post again. I did not mention morals.......I did not mention my opinion. I mentioned LAW. You also might want to read the law....because it does not matter if the person behind the child avi is adult or child in many countries. Reading is Fundamental!
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No one is unaware of the laws of their country of residence, but people with bad intentions always exist, which is why there is the problem of child avatars on the OpenSim networks. Each grid is our home, and there we have laws to respect, I personally respect and agree with the decision of safine and other grids that apply the same.
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I agree with this for the most part. Personally, anyone that even looks borderline under 18 to me, is not someone i choose to converse with, and that's *my* personal preference. I also concur that it is sad that certain people mess things up for people that want a clean and healthy experience and run around looking however they want to. Thank you Safine for taking this so serious. I hope we can all grow to respect each others gameplay and freedoms, and keep opensim growing into an even more beautiful and safe place, where for the most part, the biggest limits are our own dreams and imaginations. I love seeing detailed and imaginative builds and items!
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The question that came to mind, after reading that (excellent) post was this: Why are people asking to have child avatars permitted on Adult grids?
Let me be clear ... I can accept the premise that there are adults out there who wish to have child avatars for completely non-sexual reasons. I don't understand those reasons, but people do all sorts of things for reasons I don't understand every day :)
But if that is something that a person wants to do why do they feel the need to go to places which have, for whatever reason, said NO CHILD AVATARS and ask them to change the rules? Why not just go to the grids where the grid owner(s) permit child avatars and where they have (presumably) elected to make the extra effort to ensure that nothing illegal is going on?
There seems little point. You aren't going to find clothing for your child avatar on a grid which doesn't permit kids. You aren't going to find child-oriented activities on a grid that doesn't permit kids. And you ARE going to inhibit the activities of the adults who don't feel comfortable doing adult things in front of kids.
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Let me be clear ... I can accept the premise that there are adults out there who wish to have child avatars for completely non-sexual reasons. I don't understand those reasons, but people do all sorts of things for reasons I don't understand every day :)
But if that is something that a person wants to do why do they feel the need to go to places which have, for whatever reason, said NO CHILD AVATARS and ask them to change the rules? Why not just go to the grids where the grid owner(s) permit child avatars and where they have (presumably) elected to make the extra effort to ensure that nothing illegal is going on?
There seems little point. You aren't going to find clothing for your child avatar on a grid which doesn't permit kids. You aren't going to find child-oriented activities on a grid that doesn't permit kids. And you ARE going to inhibit the activities of the adults who don't feel comfortable doing adult things in front of kids.
I was at a shopping region on the HG this weekend and actually found a pile of children's avatars, clothing and childlike decorations in one section in spite of the Grid Owner constantly advertising here on OSW that the grid is Adult Only. Hopefully the Grid owner will see the contradiction and not distribute the very things she is so against.
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Well said Safine. Thank you.
As cute as little child avatars can be, they bring too much speculation and trouble. They are not allowed in my regions. I prefer to be on grids that don't allow them simply because...they are too much trouble. Thanks to bad people. Bad people always ruin everything. They don't care about the laws. So we have to care. Who wants to be held liable because some people are on their grid doing bad things they are unaware of? It happens I am sure. Bad people always find a way to do the bad things they seem compelled to do. If they get caught by the law, well as a grid owner, they will be looking at you too.
So because of these idiots, it has ruined it for folks who would like to roleplay having a child or whatever reason one chooses to be a child in innocence.
I wonder what the possibilities are for creating AI children for virtual with safeguards put in place so that bad people can't mess that up too? Someone much smarter than I will have to do it. :)
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As cute as little child avatars can be, they bring too much speculation and trouble. They are not allowed in my regions. I prefer to be on grids that don't allow them simply because...they are too much trouble. Thanks to bad people. Bad people always ruin everything. They don't care about the laws. So we have to care. Who wants to be held liable because some people are on their grid doing bad things they are unaware of? It happens I am sure. Bad people always find a way to do the bad things they seem compelled to do. If they get caught by the law, well as a grid owner, they will be looking at you too.
So because of these idiots, it has ruined it for folks who would like to roleplay having a child or whatever reason one chooses to be a child in innocence.
I wonder what the possibilities are for creating AI children for virtual with safeguards put in place so that bad people can't mess that up too? Someone much smarter than I will have to do it. :)
Outside of OS I had to check this, and it's more complex if you are in EU or have EU residents, because of GDPR. I couldn't proactively scan their logs (the software for that is out there). The best is a robust, GDPR compliant ToS + reporting system - which allows you to investigate + automatically destroy + ban if a report is made (you are actually legally FORCED to) + make available to authorities if needed. But any proactive scanning in EU can get you in as much trouble. The eternal battle between safety and privacy.
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This is why I made overwatch sentry. You can set the height of avatars minimum height and maximum height. You can set the age of new accounts. You can also have a whitelist for people who are like little cats. It works for the whole sim. It is very low on cpu. It doesn't lag the sim at all. It's an automatic watcher for when you can't be there. And it works...
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It coonstantly polls the avatars. We thought of that. You can set the poll time in the menu. :)
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I agree with you, you made a very important and well-structured speech that encompasses every context.
Personally, in AviVerse, child avatars are not accepted. The issue, as you explained well, is that it would be impossible to know exactly what a child avatar is doing in regions with other adults, just as it would be impossible, and also too invasive, to continuously monitor users.
So, to avoid problems, we have decided not to allow avatars with childlike appearances. In this regard, AviVerse has adopted a control system that fairly accurately prevents the presence of child avatars, mostly with heights below average (about 1.50 meters), and now I'm trying to narrow down a range of heights between 1.00 meters and 1.50 meters to allow, for example, avatars of some cute characters like fairies or gnomes, kittens, and other cute things like that but not child avatars. For now, the system accurately captures heights without error and works well.
You also captured the discussion about laws well, so you have made, again for me, a wonderfully truthful speech. I don't dislike those who accept avatars with childlike appearances or those who use them for role-playing purposes without bad intentions, but I prefer to avoid adopting measures where child avatars are prohibited.
hugs Safine :)
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Personally, in AviVerse, child avatars are not accepted. The issue, as you explained well, is that it would be impossible to know exactly what a child avatar is doing in regions with other adults, just as it would be impossible, and also too invasive, to continuously monitor users.
So, to avoid problems, we have decided not to allow avatars with childlike appearances. In this regard, AviVerse has adopted a control system that fairly accurately prevents the presence of child avatars, mostly with heights below average (about 1.50 meters), and now I'm trying to narrow down a range of heights between 1.00 meters and 1.50 meters to allow, for example, avatars of some cute characters like fairies or gnomes, kittens, and other cute things like that but not child avatars. For now, the system accurately captures heights without error and works well.
You also captured the discussion about laws well, so you have made, again for me, a wonderfully truthful speech. I don't dislike those who accept avatars with childlike appearances or those who use them for role-playing purposes without bad intentions, but I prefer to avoid adopting measures where child avatars are prohibited.
hugs Safine :)
You grid is your home - and I think it's up to each owner to decide what works for them (always within the law). I think we all should be align there. The problem is when we start dictating or morally judging what other grid owners do...thaaaat's when the shit storm starts. Or when we try to sabotage others. Like, gosh...we lose such a HUGE opportunity for overall OS growth by backstabbing each other... But yes, agreed.
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Same applies to some grids banning the use of Darkstorm, for instance, and potential illegal misused that come with it. It can be proactive, by banning the viewer, or reactive, after reports.
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Well said Safine. This is the same approach that we have in Caribougrid. Always tried to have and always will.
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Very well said, I honestly couldn't have said this any better, thanks for taking the time Safine.
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