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The recent "knicker twist" (a *very* ugly and overly dismissive way to blow off what I read as being well-thought out and reasonable points raised by Marianna) does bring up a couple of questions:
Are there amateur builders left in Opensim?
It would be useful to define "amateur" -what do we mean by that term? Myself, I mean "self-taught", someone who has not been to art school or taken formal (not counting Builder's Brewery etc) courses on building. Other people may have different definitions -let's hear them.
It would also be useful to define "builder". When I say 'builder' I mean someone who makes creations with prims or mesh (Blender). (I'm excluding scripting, that's programming.) I'm aware that others define it in such a way as to refer to making modifications on pre-fab/pre-made mesh. Basically a "modder". In my mind it's a valid thing but it's different than building.
But language shifts and definitions change, "hacker" used to mean "someone who comes up with clever approaches to computer problems or design" -but for roughly 30 years it's been used to refer to people who break into computer systems and/or write viruses. As I say -definitions change.
So how do we define "builder" now? What constitutes "building"?
I can only think of a small handful of builders in the sense of making something from nothing, there's a larger pool of people who modify pre-made content -and unless I'm mistaken Marianna and Luna Luneria do a mix of both. Again, one isn't better than the other and both are forms of creative expression. But they are different.
The point of all this is to assess *need.* Do we need an organization? By "we" I am referring to "amateurs", I'm not referring to AuroraAsteria's group.
Moreover with the extremely low user numbers of Opensim would there be a point to creating an organization (beyond a collection of friends -I mean, if you already know each other knock yourselves out)?
I suspect -and have for years, that any such group would wither on the vine from lack of interest. Otherwise I'd be trying to start something myself.
I reserve the right to delete obnoxious comments and lock the comments entirely if it looks like they're going to simply be a shit-show. Show me that you *can* adult, OSW. Don't post insults (I'll delete them), paranoid rants (I'll delete them), off-topic diatribes about how somebody done somebody wrong songs (again -will delete). If there's a question about what the topic is intended to be -ask.
Make this a pain in my ass and I'll delete everything and lock the comments.
Are there amateur builders left in Opensim?
It would be useful to define "amateur" -what do we mean by that term? Myself, I mean "self-taught", someone who has not been to art school or taken formal (not counting Builder's Brewery etc) courses on building. Other people may have different definitions -let's hear them.
It would also be useful to define "builder". When I say 'builder' I mean someone who makes creations with prims or mesh (Blender). (I'm excluding scripting, that's programming.) I'm aware that others define it in such a way as to refer to making modifications on pre-fab/pre-made mesh. Basically a "modder". In my mind it's a valid thing but it's different than building.
But language shifts and definitions change, "hacker" used to mean "someone who comes up with clever approaches to computer problems or design" -but for roughly 30 years it's been used to refer to people who break into computer systems and/or write viruses. As I say -definitions change.
So how do we define "builder" now? What constitutes "building"?
I can only think of a small handful of builders in the sense of making something from nothing, there's a larger pool of people who modify pre-made content -and unless I'm mistaken Marianna and Luna Luneria do a mix of both. Again, one isn't better than the other and both are forms of creative expression. But they are different.
The point of all this is to assess *need.* Do we need an organization? By "we" I am referring to "amateurs", I'm not referring to AuroraAsteria's group.
Moreover with the extremely low user numbers of Opensim would there be a point to creating an organization (beyond a collection of friends -I mean, if you already know each other knock yourselves out)?
I suspect -and have for years, that any such group would wither on the vine from lack of interest. Otherwise I'd be trying to start something myself.
I reserve the right to delete obnoxious comments and lock the comments entirely if it looks like they're going to simply be a shit-show. Show me that you *can* adult, OSW. Don't post insults (I'll delete them), paranoid rants (I'll delete them), off-topic diatribes about how somebody done somebody wrong songs (again -will delete). If there's a question about what the topic is intended to be -ask.
Make this a pain in my ass and I'll delete everything and lock the comments.
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Complaining about trans folks
1)In a post written by a trans woman
2)after said trans woman's already said "no paranoid rants"
...is very, very silly.
I'm going to wrap this up (meaning lock the comments), before things slide into flamage. Apologies to anyone coming who wanted to respond.
Thank you for everyone's well written and very thoughtful responses -you all brought up a lot of wonderful points and I think this discussion has been productive because now we have a clear idea of what's what (including that a number of people who have gone pro are self-taught) and we've all got a lot of food for thought.
Thanks, everyone and happy 2025!
PS: archive.org link to this thread for posterity (hedging against ragequits -my own ^^):
https://web.archive.org/web/20250102131619/https://opensim...
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1)In a post written by a trans woman
2)after said trans woman's already said "no paranoid rants"
...is very, very silly.
I'm going to wrap this up (meaning lock the comments), before things slide into flamage. Apologies to anyone coming who wanted to respond.
Thank you for everyone's well written and very thoughtful responses -you all brought up a lot of wonderful points and I think this discussion has been productive because now we have a clear idea of what's what (including that a number of people who have gone pro are self-taught) and we've all got a lot of food for thought.
Thanks, everyone and happy 2025!
PS: archive.org link to this thread for posterity (hedging against ragequits -my own ^^):
https://web.archive.org/web/20250102131619/https://opensim...
I am grateful to have made a proper living from building/creating for 10 years, paid my bills and mortgage, and am now sort of retired. So I spend some of my time in OS because it's full of lovely people who enjoy building. I have brought all my items from SL to here, and give them away freely. OS is just as important to share in, as SL is important to make money in. We need both.
I am entirely self taught, as I was lucky enough to get in on the 3D creation right at the very start, so there was no-one to teach us. We just had to make it up as we went along, which was wonderfully creative and exhilarating. I have shared my knowledge, and taught dozens of people how to use blender and how to mesh and rig over the years for no charge, simply so there are more people enjoying this great platform that we have both in SL and OS. I can do texture creation, animation, rigging, prim and mesh architecture, clothing meshes and deformers, and I love to tweak scripts, and play about with lighting and photography.
What I also love about OS is that everything is opensource, so I can lean new skills, without having to do any classes, just by looking at how things are created, seeing inside the item to see how it works. I really enjoy finding out what makes things work, and OS does that for us, no matter what our skill sets are. Then I can build on that knowledge and create something even more interesting for others to enjoy.
Creativity is very important in my opinion, for all of us. It helps us to express ourselves, share with others, and fulfils us as humans in a way that nothing else can quite match. Opensim is one of the best communities that I have found to express this essential part of who we are as people. It really doesn't matter if you are creating a store full of fandom items, or if you are striving for months to produce something entirely new and groundbreaking. What is important is that you enjoy it, express yourself, and share.
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I am entirely self taught, as I was lucky enough to get in on the 3D creation right at the very start, so there was no-one to teach us. We just had to make it up as we went along, which was wonderfully creative and exhilarating. I have shared my knowledge, and taught dozens of people how to use blender and how to mesh and rig over the years for no charge, simply so there are more people enjoying this great platform that we have both in SL and OS. I can do texture creation, animation, rigging, prim and mesh architecture, clothing meshes and deformers, and I love to tweak scripts, and play about with lighting and photography.
What I also love about OS is that everything is opensource, so I can lean new skills, without having to do any classes, just by looking at how things are created, seeing inside the item to see how it works. I really enjoy finding out what makes things work, and OS does that for us, no matter what our skill sets are. Then I can build on that knowledge and create something even more interesting for others to enjoy.
Creativity is very important in my opinion, for all of us. It helps us to express ourselves, share with others, and fulfils us as humans in a way that nothing else can quite match. Opensim is one of the best communities that I have found to express this essential part of who we are as people. It really doesn't matter if you are creating a store full of fandom items, or if you are striving for months to produce something entirely new and groundbreaking. What is important is that you enjoy it, express yourself, and share.
I am fully self-taught, and being a designer and a portrait artist in RL I have used graphics-intensive software for some time. Most of what I make are large architectural builds that are mostly prim with some mesh components mixed in, some of which I make in Blender and some that I either buy outright or source with commercial licenses. By choice, no part of my builds are sourced from Opensim, not because they're aren't great builders here, but much of what I find has questionable provenance, so I avoid the issue entirely. If an online 3D modeler has already made an excellent mesh component that will fit my larger vision, I'm not going to waste time trying to perfectly duplicate their work just to be able to say I made every little part of something. My cinema for example has over 3000 parts, 95% of which are my own prims, mesh, and textures, but it also includes a few very nice art deco pieces I purchased.
In Second Life I was able to source the few components I needed from stores there, but when I came to OS a few years ago none of that infrastructure existed and I had to start over from scratch. I had to learn Blender, mesh, materials, basic scripting, sounds, and others. My skills took a significant leap forward, and while it was all a very steep learning curve, I've never regretted it. There are so many creative areas I haven't yet stepped into, and there are so many OS artists I totally admire like my friend Cherry Manga. I respect anyone in OS who tries their hand at making anything. As for me, I love creating and stretching my talents, and I am very grateful for those loyal patrons who make it possible for me to keep doing what I love.
As for the TGA Discord group, I joined just for the camaraderie and to offer help wherever I can, which has already happened. I'm sure others will share information and tips that I will find helpful in my own work. I haven't seen any standards being mandated for anyone, just a fun collaboration mostly among those working with avatars and avatar accessories. Those are beyond my purview but interesting to follow. I'm glad I joined :-)
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In Second Life I was able to source the few components I needed from stores there, but when I came to OS a few years ago none of that infrastructure existed and I had to start over from scratch. I had to learn Blender, mesh, materials, basic scripting, sounds, and others. My skills took a significant leap forward, and while it was all a very steep learning curve, I've never regretted it. There are so many creative areas I haven't yet stepped into, and there are so many OS artists I totally admire like my friend Cherry Manga. I respect anyone in OS who tries their hand at making anything. As for me, I love creating and stretching my talents, and I am very grateful for those loyal patrons who make it possible for me to keep doing what I love.
As for the TGA Discord group, I joined just for the camaraderie and to offer help wherever I can, which has already happened. I'm sure others will share information and tips that I will find helpful in my own work. I haven't seen any standards being mandated for anyone, just a fun collaboration mostly among those working with avatars and avatar accessories. Those are beyond my purview but interesting to follow. I'm glad I joined :-)
Morning and Happy New Year from me as well:)
I'm grateful you're addressing this Harper because I was trying to find the words to comment on the other thread. You've said it perfectly.
"Moreover with the extremely low user numbers of Opensim would there be a point to creating an organization (beyond a collection of friends -I mean, if you already know each other knock yourselves out)?"
THIS! This is the crux of it. Yes people who make the same stuff might want to collaborate in the best practices but don't make it a thing that causes other people to feel like it's an elite club. Also the very passive agressive "dumbing it down" and taking a public shot at someone who disagrees with you was not so nice.
I don't have a horse in that race as that's not my area of building and knowledge but that's just my take.
I have been building for a long time and I still consider myself an amateur. I'm self taught and I often don't follow the rules of math...lol
I definately learned by taking other great builders objects apart and modding them. I started at Yadni Modni's Junkyard back in SL and all those freebie boxes. I also discovered Arcadia Asylum and Linda Kellie by her old SL name which is evading my brain. Then in the OpenSim it was Vanish Firecaster's work, Fred's, of course Linda Kellie and many others. I deeply admire folks who have figured out the mesh thing as that's still not something I have skills in. Marianna has done so beautifully and so has Luna. I still mostly build with prims. Call me a dinosaur but I do.
"Do we need an organization?" Isn't that what OSW is? For better or worse with all it's drama it's still the place we can share builds, how tos and other information.
And we were all new once. We should NEVER forget that. There is no wrong place to begin here and it feels very uncomfortable and unfamiliar until you get that practice. I still get stuck all the time and don't know where to go with a build because sometimes creativity is just hard.
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I'm grateful you're addressing this Harper because I was trying to find the words to comment on the other thread. You've said it perfectly.
"Moreover with the extremely low user numbers of Opensim would there be a point to creating an organization (beyond a collection of friends -I mean, if you already know each other knock yourselves out)?"
THIS! This is the crux of it. Yes people who make the same stuff might want to collaborate in the best practices but don't make it a thing that causes other people to feel like it's an elite club. Also the very passive agressive "dumbing it down" and taking a public shot at someone who disagrees with you was not so nice.
I don't have a horse in that race as that's not my area of building and knowledge but that's just my take.
I have been building for a long time and I still consider myself an amateur. I'm self taught and I often don't follow the rules of math...lol
I definately learned by taking other great builders objects apart and modding them. I started at Yadni Modni's Junkyard back in SL and all those freebie boxes. I also discovered Arcadia Asylum and Linda Kellie by her old SL name which is evading my brain. Then in the OpenSim it was Vanish Firecaster's work, Fred's, of course Linda Kellie and many others. I deeply admire folks who have figured out the mesh thing as that's still not something I have skills in. Marianna has done so beautifully and so has Luna. I still mostly build with prims. Call me a dinosaur but I do.
"Do we need an organization?" Isn't that what OSW is? For better or worse with all it's drama it's still the place we can share builds, how tos and other information.
And we were all new once. We should NEVER forget that. There is no wrong place to begin here and it feels very uncomfortable and unfamiliar until you get that practice. I still get stuck all the time and don't know where to go with a build because sometimes creativity is just hard.
"Linda Kellie by her old SL name which is evading my brain."
Karra Baker.
And yes, Linda's stuff is great to work with as she intended. For example, she put many of her own textures into boxes, even some clothes textures if you're lucky enough to find them, and nearly all her Clutterfly creations are available as untextured kits as well, usually complete with shadow maps etc.
Granted, her clothing meshes are of varying quality and only available in-world, but if you can export them, you may improve them without breaking any licenses. Jadwiga Abremovic, for example, has taken the infamous Ruffled Bottom Dress and not only reduced the horrendous complexity of almost precisely half a million to something saner, but even tried to re-rig it for Athena and Ruth 2.0 RC#2/#3. (Pity that none of them fit Ruth2 v4 as well as at least one of the original Clutterfly meshes.)
I hope I'll soon have some more SFposer-upgraded Clutterfly furniture ready.
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Karra Baker.
And yes, Linda's stuff is great to work with as she intended. For example, she put many of her own textures into boxes, even some clothes textures if you're lucky enough to find them, and nearly all her Clutterfly creations are available as untextured kits as well, usually complete with shadow maps etc.
Granted, her clothing meshes are of varying quality and only available in-world, but if you can export them, you may improve them without breaking any licenses. Jadwiga Abremovic, for example, has taken the infamous Ruffled Bottom Dress and not only reduced the horrendous complexity of almost precisely half a million to something saner, but even tried to re-rig it for Athena and Ruth 2.0 RC#2/#3. (Pity that none of them fit Ruth2 v4 as well as at least one of the original Clutterfly meshes.)
I hope I'll soon have some more SFposer-upgraded Clutterfly furniture ready.
Funnily enough it wasn't Karra Baker so there must be a few names she went by. Some of the packaging pics came to us here though so I figured it out. And I love Jadwiga's stuff too.
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Wonderful points well written, thank you for writing them...very well said...*sheds a tear and pours a forty for Opensim Creations*
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Good morning and Happy New year! I think this is a very valid topic to discuss. I am fairly (about 6 months) new to Opensim. And Marianna is right, it does feel intimidating to see all the amazing work out there, which is why so far I have stuck to being a decorator and landscaper, and modding some of my finds with my own textures, ripping walls out of buildings, that sort of thing. But to create from scratch.. even though I can as long as it's prims/textures etc. I find it hard to start. Why even try to build when there's people out there who do it so much better than I will be able to at least for years to come. I have already benefitted from the "What are you looking for group" which put me in touch with places to get stuff I could not find anywhere on my own, so a big thank you to Nico for that. For me, a Discord group where I could just ask people with way more knowledge than myself for help with issues I encounter would be super helpful. But I also need to be realistic. What I have also found is that the whole "Sharing s caring" concept doesn't go for everyone. Even the 100% ripped from SL stuff that every freebie place offers is often offered as contents only, so without the box, or no transfer and even no modify sometimes making it impossible for others to "share it forward". On one of my first days here someone said to me "it's Opensim, it has more clubs than people" and for a large part, I find this to be true for stores and creations, too. So yes, I fear an initiative like this would wither and die. But I would also LOVE to be proven wrong. Just my 2 cents.
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"Sharing is caring" is a 2010s thing. It was pushed so hard for one particular reason: Those who imported SL content wanted it to spread across the freebie stores on the Hypergrid in order to obfuscate how it got into SL in the first place. Hence also "Share with no mercy" and "Share or die".
If something was no-transfer, it was either an original creation, or it was due to licensing, or someone has set full-perm content to no-transfer to make it useless for builders of new and therefore competing freebie sims. As if you couldn't pick the same stuff up elsewhere.
Nowadays, it's very different. The owners of newer freebie stores rip and import their stuff themselves. And they're in direct competition with each other. Everyone wants to offer the newest, hottest stuff a) first and b) exclusively. Including bodies.
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If something was no-transfer, it was either an original creation, or it was due to licensing, or someone has set full-perm content to no-transfer to make it useless for builders of new and therefore competing freebie sims. As if you couldn't pick the same stuff up elsewhere.
Nowadays, it's very different. The owners of newer freebie stores rip and import their stuff themselves. And they're in direct competition with each other. Everyone wants to offer the newest, hottest stuff a) first and b) exclusively. Including bodies.
You make a lot of good points. I'm not a fan of discord (ironically since I'm on like 80 odd servers) but some sort of repository where people can go to for help would be nice. But that takes us back to the 'withering on the vine' problem.
"What I have also found is that the whole "Sharing s caring" concept doesn't go for everyone. Even the 100% ripped from SL stuff that every freebie place offers is often offered as contents only, so without the box, or no transfer and even no modify sometimes making it impossible for others to "share it forward".
Yeah, that is a valid point, a very fair critique. I'm not touching the issue though because it's getting too far a-field away from the topic of *building* and into *distributing* and more importantly...I don't have the spoons for the ensuing flame war. 😉
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"What I have also found is that the whole "Sharing s caring" concept doesn't go for everyone. Even the 100% ripped from SL stuff that every freebie place offers is often offered as contents only, so without the box, or no transfer and even no modify sometimes making it impossible for others to "share it forward".
Yeah, that is a valid point, a very fair critique. I'm not touching the issue though because it's getting too far a-field away from the topic of *building* and into *distributing* and more importantly...I don't have the spoons for the ensuing flame war. 😉
Whatever your skills are, and whatever you call what you do, thanks for your contribution to OS. I'm thinking about how to create a "Skills Bank" as a way to tap into that knowledge and proactively help people connect. It would have to be on Discord I think. Unfortunately, I don't have the time and energy to do that right now.
So, for now, please consider joining the "What Are You Looking For" group and offering your skills to people asking for help. And if you happen to have the stuff people are hoping to find, well there you are, at the ready with an answer!
https://opensimworld.com/groups/1060
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So, for now, please consider joining the "What Are You Looking For" group and offering your skills to people asking for help. And if you happen to have the stuff people are hoping to find, well there you are, at the ready with an answer!
https://opensimworld.com/groups/1060
I want to share https://outworldz.com/Outworldz is a treasure trove of items and tutorials where I go for most everything I need. It is all located conveniently in one spot. Fred has donated multiple hours saving and documenting for future creators. Thank you @ferdfrederix for being my mentor for years, and for all you do to support the community.
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@Marianna I made a comment with a bunch of questions which you may have responded to. Sorry, I deleted the comment before I saw there was a reply.
In any case, I was a bit confused. There is the message from the Gilded Accord about what they do, how and why. Then there is this post which, aside from inviting a discussion to define terms, seems to be about reactions to an idea to form a "Builders Guild" as I would call it.
From what I understand of the message from the Gilded Accord, I can say I like what they are doing. But I don't know the reason for their message. I'm going to guess it's a response to a discussion elsewhere about them. If there is some kind of kerfluffle about Gilded Accord, I'm reading about it 3rd hand it seems.
Time for some investigation...
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In any case, I was a bit confused. There is the message from the Gilded Accord about what they do, how and why. Then there is this post which, aside from inviting a discussion to define terms, seems to be about reactions to an idea to form a "Builders Guild" as I would call it.
From what I understand of the message from the Gilded Accord, I can say I like what they are doing. But I don't know the reason for their message. I'm going to guess it's a response to a discussion elsewhere about them. If there is some kind of kerfluffle about Gilded Accord, I'm reading about it 3rd hand it seems.
Time for some investigation...
Replying again yes you deleted my message. Their group is a group that I totally understand the reasoning as to why it is needed. A group of skin, head, body creators who are trying to make the work flow consistant for all creating those bodies, heads skins etc. It makes sense for everyone to be on the same page, I totally get that. SL had standard sizes so that the clothing creators could get the right sizes for the different mesh body sizes, it makes total sense. Where I am being misunderstood is, the learning curve when coming into opensim and creating is huge, you have to learn Texturing, modeling, building editors etc, most also learn Blender, Photoshop or Gimp etc. The learning curve is steep and takes years to master all you need to learn, what I was trying to convey is when a new person coming into opensim looks at all that then they also see a Gilded group with set standards that they also must follow, to work with the many bodies, skins, shapes, heads etc that they also have to learn it overwhelms. It took me many years to perfect what I do now. I didn't mean to convey that everyone on the same page was a bad thing they have to because most of these bodies in SL have Creator Kits for the bodies but here in opensim they don't because many of the bodies are here illegally and the creators do not support giving out those kits here in opensim. When creating there is a certain magic, that needs to be preserved. Rigid standards, while often well-intentioned, can unintentionally stifle creativity, particularly for newcomers who are still exploring their potential
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"I didn't mean to convey that everyone on the same page was a bad thing they have to because most of these bodies in SL have Creator Kits for the bodies but here in opensim they don't because many of the bodies are here illegally and the creators do not support giving out those kits here in opensim."
SL body makers are already picky about who in SL is allowed to buy their dev kits. What chances does OpenSim have, ripe as it is with avatars with god-mode and "rogue" viewers? Not to mention the question why OpenSim may want devkits for bodies whose makers don't officially offer them in OpenSim?
On top of that, the devkits for the Ruth2 and Roth2 family are on varying degrees between "meh" and practically useless. No wonder hardly anyone makes original mesh clothes in OpenSim.
That's why I've got high hopes for the Max bodies that I hope will come out this year. One reason why they were made is to have bodies with easily available and actually useful devkits. I can think of a few clothesmakers who might be interested in them.
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SL body makers are already picky about who in SL is allowed to buy their dev kits. What chances does OpenSim have, ripe as it is with avatars with god-mode and "rogue" viewers? Not to mention the question why OpenSim may want devkits for bodies whose makers don't officially offer them in OpenSim?
On top of that, the devkits for the Ruth2 and Roth2 family are on varying degrees between "meh" and practically useless. No wonder hardly anyone makes original mesh clothes in OpenSim.
That's why I've got high hopes for the Max bodies that I hope will come out this year. One reason why they were made is to have bodies with easily available and actually useful devkits. I can think of a few clothesmakers who might be interested in them.
I would be interested in this too, I haven't heard of Max bodies can you share a bit about that?
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The people behind Max are essentially the same as behind Ruth2 v4 and Roth2 v2.
I think the whole project started in 2023 when Ada Radius was fed up with trying to nip and tuck on Ruth2 v4 and Roth2 v2 to no avail. She had told me earlier at a Kitely birthday party that the only way to fix Roth2 would be to remake the body from scratch. It didn't help that Ada uses Blender, but she had to work with meshes which Shin Ingen had originally made in Zbrush.
The latter is also the reason why no member of the greater Ruth2 and Roth2 families has a decent devkit: Shin has never made devkits, Ada had to do that, and one does not simply make devkits for Zbrush bodies in Blender.
So it must have been in 2023 when the point was reached at which Ada decided it'd actually be easier to start over from scratch with brand-new bodies, including devkits, this time in Blender right away. That's how the Max project was launched.
From what I've heard, the idea behind Max is to be able to derive both female bodies (branded "Maxine") and male bodies (branded "Maxwell") from the same sources. This would make bodies between the stereotypical female body and the stereotypical male body possible. Or simply things like the same separate feet for the male body that are typical for the Ruth2 family so that male avatars can wear pumps.
As for the rigging, I don't know if they'll be close to anything known. I guess I can hope that Maxwell's rigging won't be as out-of-whack as Roth2 v2's.
Serie Sumei has taken over the scripting part again. The built-in technology and the HUDs will probably be largely the same as for Ruth2 v4 and Roth2 v2.
Early versions of the bodies could be witnessed in the wild at OSCC23 when Ai Austin, Ada Radius and Serie Sumei showed up wearing them.
Unfortunately, the development has kind of stalled due to health reasons on Ada's side, not to mention all the other projects she's involved in (three words: Arcadia Asylum Grid), but she wants to get back to it this year.
Here are the sources: https://github.com/ruthandroth/max
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I think the whole project started in 2023 when Ada Radius was fed up with trying to nip and tuck on Ruth2 v4 and Roth2 v2 to no avail. She had told me earlier at a Kitely birthday party that the only way to fix Roth2 would be to remake the body from scratch. It didn't help that Ada uses Blender, but she had to work with meshes which Shin Ingen had originally made in Zbrush.
The latter is also the reason why no member of the greater Ruth2 and Roth2 families has a decent devkit: Shin has never made devkits, Ada had to do that, and one does not simply make devkits for Zbrush bodies in Blender.
So it must have been in 2023 when the point was reached at which Ada decided it'd actually be easier to start over from scratch with brand-new bodies, including devkits, this time in Blender right away. That's how the Max project was launched.
From what I've heard, the idea behind Max is to be able to derive both female bodies (branded "Maxine") and male bodies (branded "Maxwell") from the same sources. This would make bodies between the stereotypical female body and the stereotypical male body possible. Or simply things like the same separate feet for the male body that are typical for the Ruth2 family so that male avatars can wear pumps.
As for the rigging, I don't know if they'll be close to anything known. I guess I can hope that Maxwell's rigging won't be as out-of-whack as Roth2 v2's.
Serie Sumei has taken over the scripting part again. The built-in technology and the HUDs will probably be largely the same as for Ruth2 v4 and Roth2 v2.
Early versions of the bodies could be witnessed in the wild at OSCC23 when Ai Austin, Ada Radius and Serie Sumei showed up wearing them.
Unfortunately, the development has kind of stalled due to health reasons on Ada's side, not to mention all the other projects she's involved in (three words: Arcadia Asylum Grid), but she wants to get back to it this year.
Here are the sources: https://github.com/ruthandroth/max
Best wishes to the creators. The bodies I created were just using Avastar default body which needs fine tuning, new feet and hands as the default is not too pretty, that is why they went with feet and hand attachments. I had fun with it and love that the clothes are attached to the skin, and I created some mesh clothing for those avs too but, you can definitely see a difference in Avastar default bodies compared to the newer mesh bodies being brought in. We can always strive to do better. The hours it takes to perfect it all is exactly why the TGA wants to unite to help their workflow I completely get that. New systems, 10 new mesh bodies in opensim, heads, etc does need collaboration. In the critquing I was hoping to convey OSW is where we all are, why branch off and go to discord when all the resources should be here. The repository everyone says we need we have - thanks to @ferdfrederix has anyone really looked through that site? https://outworldz.com/Outworldz
Lets embrace the past as we step into the future 💗
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Lets embrace the past as we step into the future 💗
Also curious about the Max series. I would much rather support content that's homegrown in the OpenSim. Taarna Welles made some very nice clothes for the Ruth avatars. I was hoping she'd keep going on that and maybe do some Roth ones too. But now I'm hoping she expands and does Max if that takes off.
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Taarna has rigged most of her women's clothes for Ruth 2.0 RC#2; RC#3 has the same mesh. Some of them can be worn by Ruth2 v4 with appropriate alpha masks. Juno has reworked the boxes available at RuthAndRoth by replenishing them with missing colour variants and adding her own alpha masks.
But yes, she's one of the names I have in mind for Max clothes.
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But yes, she's one of the names I have in mind for Max clothes.
I'd glad people of rare talent and hard-won skills are working together like that. It's a club that would be impossible for me to join. My skills lie elsewhere. Thanks for contributing yours to OS and making your wonderful creations available.
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The problem is not to create builders categories or to oppose each other ; we are interdependent with each our own skills and the same constraints related to Opensim.
I will talk about amateurs, the buildouilleurs, as I call them, make their mesh for themselves, without constraint and for pleasure. But these people are more of a loner, they don’t communicate too much about their production since amateurs often have small shops or share their objects with their friends.
Why create an organization? For what purpose? And I think there are already all the tools to federate amateurs but if they really wanted it would be already done , moreover there is surely already a group of amateur builders . What is missing is a label "Opensim inside", it’s also a way to promote Opensim by showing that no, there is not only copy. Opensim is a place of creation.
A more or less successful example is ruth2.0 and roth which are born on opensim.
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I will talk about amateurs, the buildouilleurs, as I call them, make their mesh for themselves, without constraint and for pleasure. But these people are more of a loner, they don’t communicate too much about their production since amateurs often have small shops or share their objects with their friends.
Why create an organization? For what purpose? And I think there are already all the tools to federate amateurs but if they really wanted it would be already done , moreover there is surely already a group of amateur builders . What is missing is a label "Opensim inside", it’s also a way to promote Opensim by showing that no, there is not only copy. Opensim is a place of creation.
A more or less successful example is ruth2.0 and roth which are born on opensim.
I created mesh avatars too with Fred's help with the scripts. Using Avastar, blender and Photoshop. I created the clothing with the skins so that people could teleport without lag of all the attachments. Fred created an avatar Wonder Woman with this application that I adored and wanted to create many different avs. Because it is just simpler without attachments. I have them in a store inworld "Rigged Avatar Store" at 3HG, I don't advertise them much.
Rigging mesh is yet another aspect of building that also takes time to learn.
I tend to fall into the "loner" category you tend to do that when there is so much to learn, with no time to hang out at discord or go to many events. I frequent OSW because I love connecting with all the grid owners and creators. My passion is creating, something that I hope to pass on to others. I have written a few tutorials as I learn something new. That is what my hope is that others will share that knowledge they learn here at OSW in General by creating "Articles" Best wishes to all those starting out, anytime you need help please IM anytime.
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Rigging mesh is yet another aspect of building that also takes time to learn.
I tend to fall into the "loner" category you tend to do that when there is so much to learn, with no time to hang out at discord or go to many events. I frequent OSW because I love connecting with all the grid owners and creators. My passion is creating, something that I hope to pass on to others. I have written a few tutorials as I learn something new. That is what my hope is that others will share that knowledge they learn here at OSW in General by creating "Articles" Best wishes to all those starting out, anytime you need help please IM anytime.
"I tend to fall into the "loner" category you tend to do that when there is so much to learn, with no time to hang out at discord or go to many events. I frequent OSW because I love connecting with all the grid owners and creators." me too, and honestly that's one of the reasons I am skeptical of setting up a group for the amateur bit even though it would be nice if there was one. In three or four months it'd be abandoned bc so many of us are introverts :D
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I think i took a Fortran class once. I build and make things and script stuff and i share, i always try to give away my stuff full perm, but sometimes i forget or don't do it right but if anyone asks i send it to them.
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I'm not sure if I handled scripting right -I wanted to point out that it is creative (it's writing after all) but not what I meant. ty and ty for sharing things full perm. :)
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"Do we need an organization?" I don't know. But I need a link to Marianna's post. :)
EDIT: Having now read the post, I will say that you do not need an organization, but you could benefit from one.
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EDIT: Having now read the post, I will say that you do not need an organization, but you could benefit from one.
The comment I left on that post:
Looking to collaborate with people with skillz? I'll post this in the "What Are You Looking For" group.
The fine folks in the Sharing is Caring family have this all sorted out I think. They are some of the original importers and likely had a way to coordinate their efforts. Ask Chilli Bean @ChilliBean. She is a member of What Are You Looking For and may see the post when I make it. Also Felix Mafia does a great amount of work with getting bodies and heads to work in OS. Last I checked, he's also part of the Sharing is Caring family.
EDIT: It now reads
Posted to the "What Are You Looking For" group, with comments.
https://opensimworld.com/post/115534?msgSuccess=Posted
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Looking to collaborate with people with skillz? I'll post this in the "What Are You Looking For" group.
The fine folks in the Sharing is Caring family have this all sorted out I think. They are some of the original importers and likely had a way to coordinate their efforts. Ask Chilli Bean @ChilliBean. She is a member of What Are You Looking For and may see the post when I make it. Also Felix Mafia does a great amount of work with getting bodies and heads to work in OS. Last I checked, he's also part of the Sharing is Caring family.
EDIT: It now reads
Posted to the "What Are You Looking For" group, with comments.
https://opensimworld.com/post/115534?msgSuccess=Posted
Change the texture: Modding
Ripping the mesh apart and using the parts to build something else: Building
I do both. I call the 2nd "recycling" the parts of the original.
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Ripping the mesh apart and using the parts to build something else: Building
I do both. I call the 2nd "recycling" the parts of the original.
That's absolutely building, you're right; a lot of people learned buiilding by taking apart full perm items and seeing how they were done.
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This is such an insightful post—thank you for taking the time to lay out these questions so clearly. I especially appreciate your breakdown of the terms "amateur" and "builder," as these definitions are important when discussing the creative landscape in Opensim.
I agree that self-taught builders, whether they work with prims, mesh, or both, bring a unique perspective to Opensim. While I’m inclined to see modding as a creative process as well, I appreciate the distinction you made between modders and original builders. Both require skill and vision, but they contribute in different ways to the community.
I fully support your call for a respectful and focused discussion. Opensim thrives on collaboration and positivity, and it’s heartening to see someone emphasize that. Thank you for opening up this important dialogue—I look forward to seeing others’ thoughts.
and to be clear, the term "amateur" here isn’t about skill level—it’s about being in the early stages of their creative journey in Opensim. These builders are laying the foundation for their skills, and many will go on to develop impressive creations as they gain experience and confidence.
By focusing on this definition, I want to emphasize the value of a supportive environment for those learning Opensim’s building tools. Encouraging and mentoring new builders is vital for growing the Opensim community, as they represent its future creative potential.
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I agree that self-taught builders, whether they work with prims, mesh, or both, bring a unique perspective to Opensim. While I’m inclined to see modding as a creative process as well, I appreciate the distinction you made between modders and original builders. Both require skill and vision, but they contribute in different ways to the community.
I fully support your call for a respectful and focused discussion. Opensim thrives on collaboration and positivity, and it’s heartening to see someone emphasize that. Thank you for opening up this important dialogue—I look forward to seeing others’ thoughts.
and to be clear, the term "amateur" here isn’t about skill level—it’s about being in the early stages of their creative journey in Opensim. These builders are laying the foundation for their skills, and many will go on to develop impressive creations as they gain experience and confidence.
By focusing on this definition, I want to emphasize the value of a supportive environment for those learning Opensim’s building tools. Encouraging and mentoring new builders is vital for growing the Opensim community, as they represent its future creative potential.
Thanks so much for the encouragement! I hope I put things clearly enough. I clearly overlooked some things but that's fine -that's why I ask to begin with.
I made exhibits for the secondlife birthday for 10 years, but I still classify myself as an amateur despite having 13 years of building experience. I don't have the education, which includes things like best practices, knowledge of theory, etc. I know how some features work but mostly because of trail and error.
I think amateur can have both meanings -someone just starting out and someone without a technical background. But that's just my perspective and I can be wrong (or, more accurately, using terminology in a way fewer people use it)
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I made exhibits for the secondlife birthday for 10 years, but I still classify myself as an amateur despite having 13 years of building experience. I don't have the education, which includes things like best practices, knowledge of theory, etc. I know how some features work but mostly because of trail and error.
I think amateur can have both meanings -someone just starting out and someone without a technical background. But that's just my perspective and I can be wrong (or, more accurately, using terminology in a way fewer people use it)
Yes and to be clear as possible, I’m referring specifically to newcomers—people who are just starting to explore the platform and its building tools. Opensim has a learning curve that can feel overwhelming to someone who’s new to building, whether they’re working with prims, mesh, or the in-world editor.
What concerns me is the experience of these new builders when they encounter established groups, such as the Gilded Accord or other communities that have set high standards for what constitutes "good" building. While these groups often have excellent skills and knowledge, their depth and complexity can be intimidating for newcomers. It’s not just about skill level—it’s about feeling like there’s a huge gap between where you are as a beginner and the expectations of more experienced builders.
This dynamic can discourage new builders before they’ve even had a chance to fully explore their creativity. The focus, I believe, should be on supporting and encouraging new builders to experiment, make mistakes, and grow at their own pace. We should strive for an environment where they feel welcomed and not judged by standards they’re just beginning to understand.
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What concerns me is the experience of these new builders when they encounter established groups, such as the Gilded Accord or other communities that have set high standards for what constitutes "good" building. While these groups often have excellent skills and knowledge, their depth and complexity can be intimidating for newcomers. It’s not just about skill level—it’s about feeling like there’s a huge gap between where you are as a beginner and the expectations of more experienced builders.
This dynamic can discourage new builders before they’ve even had a chance to fully explore their creativity. The focus, I believe, should be on supporting and encouraging new builders to experiment, make mistakes, and grow at their own pace. We should strive for an environment where they feel welcomed and not judged by standards they’re just beginning to understand.
I suspect the Accord is not for them -and that's fine; it's not for me, either. What I feel needs to happen is that there needs to be a support for beginners and also morons like myself (the untrained) ...and support includes *socialization* mind you...in opensim. A space where folks can learn from and support each other, and possibly get support as well. The problem as I see it is that any such group will suffer from teacher burnout and low participation -at least that's my intuition.
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Define "builder."
It’s not “making something from nothing,” House builders do not plant the seed, cut down the tree, and mill it to lumber.
Build: to form by combining materials or parts; construct.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
I often build by "recycling" the parts of an existing build. Some might call it a "derivative work."
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It’s not “making something from nothing,” House builders do not plant the seed, cut down the tree, and mill it to lumber.
Build: to form by combining materials or parts; construct.
American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language
I often build by "recycling" the parts of an existing build. Some might call it a "derivative work."
They also can't fly while they build, either. ;) I say that to point out the differences between building irl and building in SL/OS/3d where we absolutely can make something where there was nothing before.
BUT -as you point out, it's not the end-all be-all and only definition of building. There was (still is?) a whole industry in SL around selling pre-fabs -and, of course, taking apart and reassembling other builds (mentioned earlier).
Yep, this is why I am throwing the questions out there. For folks to point out aspects I didn't think of.
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BUT -as you point out, it's not the end-all be-all and only definition of building. There was (still is?) a whole industry in SL around selling pre-fabs -and, of course, taking apart and reassembling other builds (mentioned earlier).
Yep, this is why I am throwing the questions out there. For folks to point out aspects I didn't think of.
Long post. 1st in a series of pithy replies.
"define 'amateur'"
Amateur: not paid, as in amateur athletes. Olympic competitors sure as hell are trained.
Amateurs in OS: not paid for importing stuff from SL. *
Professional: paid
Professionals in SL: paid very little.
*There are other kinds of amateurs in OS, like myself, who do not import stuff from SL. I just mod or "recycle" it once it gets here. My parole officer calls it being an accessory after the fact. :)
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"define 'amateur'"
Amateur: not paid, as in amateur athletes. Olympic competitors sure as hell are trained.
Amateurs in OS: not paid for importing stuff from SL. *
Professional: paid
Professionals in SL: paid very little.
*There are other kinds of amateurs in OS, like myself, who do not import stuff from SL. I just mod or "recycle" it once it gets here. My parole officer calls it being an accessory after the fact. :)